I believe that narrow popular vote victory for Obama is proof of this.  John McCain was a terribly weak candidate, and yet he still lost by a relatively small margin (popularly).

The Private Health Insurance companies are far less cost effective, and that's partly due to the billions of dollars in profit being made on the backs of people's health. The bulk of money being made is not even by the actual Healthcare workers..ie..the Doctors, Techs, Nurses, etc..etc...it's being made by the middle men. Billions of dollars in marketing and "spinning" on the news networks is spent to "keep our eyes off the ball", and distracted with side issues that aren't even relevant, anything but looking at the actual culprit, Bottom feeding Private Insaurance Companies. Talk to any Doctor in the US and they'll tell you that the entire way we handle Healthcare needs to be reformed. The argument is obviously the nitty gritty details that need to be hammered out. Personally, I think we need to nationalize the Insurance Companies, or flat out regulate the hell out of them, but keep the Healthcare workers private. The Insurance companies are running the show, and we just can't have that. Insurance has it's purpose, a great purpose, but not when lives are on the line. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness....Can't have "Life" without proper healthcare in 21st century imo. As life expectancy grows higher and higher, this issue is only going to get more and more important over the generations, and it's why we're talking about it now in this Country per say.

An important point dmantione made as well, many Universal Healthcare programs in many Country's are run privately, but it's the Government that steps in and pays the bill by using a national escrow fund that's tightly controlled and monitored, similiar to how an escrow account is held to pay taxes on a house through monthly payments. The one talking point you'll hear from most Conservatives is that "some Washington bureaucrat is going to make decisions about your healthcare", which is simply not true, at all. Also to point out, right now we have Insurance adjusters making decisions on our health, who's job it is to SAVE THE MOST MONEY POSSIBLE, which doesn't equate to = better health. As if an insurance company is the best option?!? You'd have to be ignorant to think that. And let's not even bring up the 50 million or so people that don't even have insurance adjusters in the first place because their employer won't pay for it or simply can't afford it, millions in poverty, or people that are in trasition between jobs in their career etc...etc.....

We have what's called "Cobra"(extends your benefits after you lose them for a monthly payment) in some states that's good for a few months, but it's very expensive (depending on your previous plan), and we can only use that program for 4 to 6 months iirc. While I could afford it no problem, I'm sure most Amercians can't. It's just a disaster. My Wife was on Cobra before we got married, right after I then put her on my own Company's policy. Sadly enough, shorty after, she got Cancer.  

Sadly, it's not until "shit hits the fan" when someone's opinion changes drastically on certain issues. Look at Nancy Reagan, HUGE supporter of Steam Cell research afer her Husband Ronald became sick. She wasn't even entertained by the current President, who She tried desperately to promote Federally backed Stem Cell research, showing just how shallow the Neoconservatives are in this country. They have no problem using the Reagan  name in public speech, but vote against a very possible solution to the very thing that led to his demise. It's downright ridiculous.

As a Business owner I can tell you, we're getting hammered with premiums and the quality of our plans have gone down over the years, so now we're paying more for less, much less. Not to mention, our co-pays are getting out of hand, and we don't have an HMO, we've got one of the best programs money can buy. Full Privitization is not the answer in all situations, and I think a lot of people are starting to realize this here in the States. I do like the Medicare + proposal, it's a start at least, but it sounds like it's going to fall short of what people really need. Keep your Privitized plan if you can, and if you can't, at least there's a safety net for your family. I don't even see this as a liberal or conservative issue, this is a human issue. All people will benefit from this, and being able to hire a healthier, less stressed middle class will net myself and other Businesses a much more effecient work force. It's a win win the way I see it.

Oh and one of the main reasons why GM and so many American Manufacturing companies have cost problems is not only the fact that they didn't want to change their mindset when it came to making better efficient cars, it's their Healthcare costs, which are MUCH higher then their global competitors. Combine that terrible upper management, and look where we are now, a mess in that industry, and across the board now.

I am disappointed in the results of our last election, not in that Obama and the Democratic party won but in the fact the American people didn't wake up and realize that our freedoms are being stolen from us. The choice in major party candidates offered no real chance for change.  Also, Bush was no conservative (he increased government and spending).

Unfortunately I think that America is going to dabble in socialism (really we already are, our market is not very free - the government is bailing everyone out). I'm sure we will find out that it wasn't such a good idea.

I wish people would realize that 'free' health care or anything else for that matter is not free. It will come in the form of much, much higher taxes.  The system needs changed, but looking to the government is looking the wrong way. They've proven time and time again that that can't spend money, effectively or efficiently. Personally, I'd prefer to spend my money, by myself and make decisions on my healthcare (or whatever else).

Obama isn't going to have it easy as president, hard times are coming. I wish him the best and hope he makes the right decisions to get us through the mess and keep this country free.  We're all in this sinking boat together, hopefully we can come to our senses and make things right before it's too late.

[EDIT: ADDED THE FOLLOWING]

Dozerking - you do have some good points. The health insurance companies do run things now, and they are making money off both the patients and doctors (mal-practice). That system does need changed completely, but I don't think the goverment should be involved other than in 'getting the ball rolling'.  The goverment has stepped in and meddled with our healthcare system, and got us to where we are now. A couple things to think about: It's insurance, right? Why use it for everything, minor to major problems? Most insurance (car, house, etc) is only used major incidents, but we use our health insurance as a maintenance plan. By that I mean everytime we visit the doctor (copay), and for many people any time we get a prescription. I've got pretty good insurance through my employer, but I see what it's like for those that don't (both parents are self employed) and it is hard and expensive for those people. It does need to change.

There is something kinda sad and wrong about a Republican party that was thoroughly in the pocket of the wealthy by the 1890's, but always hearks back to the fact that they *started* as the kind of idealistic party that helped people that they are completely against today.

"Sure we've been complete lackeys of the wealthy elite for over a century, but hey - in the 1860's, we *ROCKED*!"

In the 1960's, LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act knowing full well that he was losing the south for a generation. Someone should go to his tomb and tell him it took two generations, he did good, and it was *totally* worth it.

Jonnan

Jonnan

Indeed, Obama ran 20 points under the generic ballot.  Coat tails you say?  More like the democratic party dragged his black ass across the finish line in front of an old white guy too busy flogging his own backside to actually run.

Broosbee, a question.  Why did you have stupid insurance?

I say stupid instead of small because it's stupid to pay for insurance that only covers minor costs.  The whole point of insurance is to cover big costs.  This may not be very nice, but why is it a failing of society, or even a problem at all if you suffer the consequences of your own actions.  I don't see your situation as a horror story, you got stupid insurance, you paid for getting stupid insurance.  You should have had catastrophic coverage, a high deductible, and then 100% coverage once you hit it.  Pay for your own damn doctor visit, but when you get cancer, poof, two grand later or whatever they pick up the whole tab.  Insurance is for big things, paying someone else to pay your yearly checkups and not much else is just plain stupid.

I see one scenario where I consider it not your fault.  Your employer was forced to cover you and got a shitty plan instead of paying you more so you could go buy catastrophic coverage and have everything taken care of when you got cancer for half the premium.  In which case you should be railing against universal healthcare and trying to get work related healthcare killed by requiring two simple things.  One, that benefits paid by a company are income.  Two, that a company cannot offer one policy to one person, and not another.  Then it's your choice, and companies will have to give a shit about individuals because those will be their customers.  As opposed to now, GMC and their cadillac coverage with free boob jobs that no one uses paying all the bills and a big fuck you too for everone else.

Jonnan, when did you go through the VA?  Serious question.  One of my grandparents had an irregular heartbeat that they wouldn't bother with.  They told him it was just fine and didn't pose a threat.  When he finally convinced them to treat it, they put him on a drug that had a known side effect of muscle atrophy in the legs.  They then didn't bother to take him off the drug after he complained about it, nearly crippling him before a relative told him what was going on.  On finally convincing him to see another doctor outside the VA, he was told that he needed an emergency quintuple bypass.  His surgery was delayed while they treated the mild heart attack he had on the way.  The VA kills people from my experience.

Robert KKK Byrd?  Grand Wizard Robert KKK Byrd?  The same piece of shit racist that filibustered the Civil Rights Act, tried to use the FBI to investigate Marshall for communist ties, the only Senator to vote against both black nominees to the Supreme Court?

You need to stop reading crazy shit written by black racists, they aren't any less blind than the white ones are.  Lincoln used the word nigger, which wasn't even derogatory at the time, and ceded that there may be differences between blacks and whites while stating that such differences do not invalidate their rights to freedom.  Byrd was high in the leadership of a group lynching people just for being black.  One ended slavery, one advocated the return to it a century later, yet you call Lincoln a racist and Byrd someone that sincerely recanted.

Never mind that even if true, the facts would still be against you.  The guys screaming racist about Lincoln claim that he was forced into the Emancipation Proclamation by his own abolitionist party.  They'd still get the credit.  The union split because of the fight against slavery too, so freeing the slaves to win the war kinda has reality in reverse.  No abolitionist movement, no civil war to start with.

I had a much higher opinion of you than I do after this. That nonsense goes way beyond unintended ignorance and into wilfully ignorant and hateful.  Open your eyes.

God I hate the "Bush was no conservative" meme. Bush followed the same policies Reagan tried to follow - without a democratic congress to act as a check. That's the main difference between the two.

But there's this myth of a 'conservative' president, that, like the easter bunny, would shit chocalate covered balanced budgets out, unlike them dam' tax and spend librul's.

Of course, no one has ever seen this mythical, nay, mystical being - you would think such an entity would leave footprints in the Budget history - but as I look at the math, there's nary a trace of one, no matter how hard you look.

But once every four years, if you sit in the dark in the middle of the voting machine warehouse and listen, you can almost hear him, rustling between the voting machines, crying out for a balanced budget, lower taxes, a Jacksonian democracy, and a free copy of Ayn Rand for every child.

I honestly thought I had the bastard cornered this year, but after an exchange of fire it turned out to be Ron Paul. Dammit!

Jonnan

The US healthcare system is in trouble because you pay way too much to middle men and because your financial penalties for the most ridiculous of medical transgressions is unrealistic.

All medical malpractice settlements and decisions should have been kept private - or if public, kept to a reasonable minimum.  Granting someone a million dollars, or jailing the MD for an understandable mistake (according to standard of care) means that YOU pay for it.  MDs will seek the shelter of legal insurance (which will base their premiums on millions of dollars in settlements) and they are then forced to pass that cost on to you.

It's karma in the most literal sense.

Even fully privatized systems don't cost as much as the US system does, because apart from all the insurance bureaucracy you're supporting, you're also paying them all handsomely profitable premiums.  Every time YOU (and that means anyone and everyone) sue an MD for a minor concern, you jack up all future medical costs.  Every YOU sue a hospital for a minor transgression, you jack up their maintenance costs.  Some kind of accountability is required to have reasonable care, but the kind of financial penalties being levied are clearly out of control.

Psychoak - look at the 'generic ballot' polls over the years.

EVERYONE tracks under the generic ballot. It turns out that, as a conservative, your 'generic ballot' republican happens to agree with you on everything.

Too be fair, as a liberal, *my* 'generic ballot' candidate agrees with *me* on everything.

Dammit - if only we could get a charming idiot that can project that he agrees with you on everything withput actually saying anything, speak solely on the basis of undisprovable but 'truthy' metaphors about welfare queens and morning in america, preferably with no actual complicated legislative history that would make a, y'know, *record* - why, that would be unbeatable! Somebody like THIS GUY!

Of course, they have to be *charming* idiots. Not say, one term governors from Alaska that actually *sound* stupid - {G}. That part seems to be important.

Jonnan

Actually, for all the hype, that's not true.

The single biggest factor in medical insurance premiums (Or any other for the mattter) is the rate of return on investments - The big settlements make the headlines, but as a percentage of profits even all together they are nothing compared to the premiums the insurance companies make.

How much they can make investing those funds however - *that* makes a big difference. The first investigation into that was in the 1970's under Gerald Ford, because the insurance companies were claiming (Loudly) that their high premiums were because of lawsuits getting out of hand. They keep making the same claims every few years (And why not - They keep finding suckers that will believe it and make it harder to sue them. The biggest concern I have with term limits is that there may be something to maintaining a level of institutional memory. ), and every few years people investgate whether it's true, and nope, turns out premiums are still in lockstep with where the insurance company invests it money.

Jonnan

Still suffering from Reaganomics huh?  It's ok, you keep ignoring reality, I'll keep thinking the general populace is too stupid to breed.  That way we can both be miserable, and I get vicious when I'm in a good mood.

Aside from generic ballots being good indicators that have held up well in previous election cycles, as well as this one, there is a bit of a flaw in your logic.

If McCain and Obama both tracked under the generic ballot, there would be a third party candidate with a sizable portion of the vote, like 30%.

Democrats in general won bigger than Obama did.  The coat tails were the other way around.  Substantial gains in the house, senate and governorships.  Since you like him so much, Reagan beat the generic ballot, won bigger than a bread and butter republican, and far outstripped his republican congressmen.

He then got the top rate cut from 70% to 28% without decreasing revenue, and we had economic gains nearly on par with the postwar boom resulting from the US being the only country with industry left standing untouched.  Of course, the democratic congress still pushed through massive budget increases in social spending to go along with his military budget, so you'll pretend he was just an idiot without a clue.  Kinda like Clinton was some fucking genius because a republican congress forced a balanced budget on him back when they had balls and someone with a conscience leading them.

The vote for Obama was only a landslide in the Electorate, it was pretty close in the popular vote, I mean it usually is but, just because somebody ROFL-Stomped his oppenent in the Electoral College doesn't neccessarily mean it was a landslide.

Reagan was the best thing that ever happened for my Family and others of wealth and ownership. For the average American, his policies single handedly dismantled the manufacturing sector of the economy by removing key protections, stagnating wages of the average worker who did NOT see any tax breaks at all, and the middle class at that point started to shrink in size. In the 90's we did see a surge under Clinton for the Middle Class, but with the current administration, the same policies under Reagan were put into high gear again, massive tax cuts and deficit spending. Neocons always bring up, "oh, it's the social programs", but that's chump change. The huge spending goes to the Pentagon and Defense spending, which is out of control, ridiculously out of control, but these are the people that back the party.

The "conservative ideology" is only there to give the impression that the Conservatives are all inline together and strong, while the actual Conservative Republican Party memebers hardly follow any ideology at all, it's laughable. Like all other party memebers, they follow the dollar first.

The bottom line is, Neoconservatism is dying off, and as these older idtiots keep dying off in higher number, hopefully at faster and faster rates, and the Country gets a little browner, the landscape is going to look and feel vastly different in the next 20 to 30 years. I think we can all see a trend here, especially if the hispanic vote holds true with the Left, as it did in this election, and in 2006. The Republicans won't win another election in mass numbers ever again unless they can grab the latino vote, or make some major changes to the party platform. I hope to god they keep Palin in the spotlight and run her in 2012, it'll be an even bigger gap then it was with McCain.

As the President with the lowest apporval rating in modern history leaves office, it'll be fresh air for not only liberals, but moderates and dare I say so called conservatives as well. He'll no longer be up there with his administration embarring the party or the base, and more importantly, The Country.

You know what, I do miss my Republican days, voting my own interest...oh how times have changed over the years. I think Bush did a very important thing in the past years, he woke up the country in a big way, getting more people into politics then ever before. That's important. Fucking up the way he did, deficating on the Country by using the executive branch however he pleased, has no doubt made people aware of what a crazy son of bitch his party and like minded conservatives stand for.

I wonder if Paulson is getting any sleep. Well, at least under Bush, the rest of that tax payer money is in safe hands with plenty of oversight...what a fucking scam this was, and with no oppostion whatsoever, only a brave few on each side of the isle. The Democrats need to start growing a spine, the people gave them a mandate to govern with the majority rule, let's see if they can make things happen, or cave in to the right.

quote who="SilentStryder" comment="26"]The vote for Obama was only a landslide in the Electorate, it was pretty close in the popular vote, I mean it usually is but, just because somebody ROFL-Stomped his oppenent in the Electoral College doesn't neccessarily mean it was a landslide.[/quote]

No, the popular vote was pretty substantial by comparison to recent elections. The Electoral College was house cleaning, but the he took McCain by over 8.4 million votes..that's pretty substantial in this race.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/

And Remmeber Bush calling for his "mandate" in after Ohio in 2004? lol..

psychoak + karma, buddy.

no one ever learns, though, it's a tough fight.

I know this is an "off-topic" forum section, but what does this have to do with Sins?

Why don't you take this to "the Political Machine," makes more sense.

Politics is the #1 killer of conversations and starter of arguments; I know, I'm in politics.

OH, and Bush and McCain are NOT CONSERVATIVES! They're practically Democrats, in Rep clothing.

edit: Instead of arguing politics, let's help me on this thread: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/329701 thanks

Well, according to the Wikipedia, it was 52.7% to 46% on the popular vote. A landslide, really? It may have been a landslide by electoral college, but that's nowhere near the same as saying vast numbers of us are liberal. We're still pretty split in our politics.

Dozerking: Of course CNN wants you to believe that having slightly larger margins somehow makes it a "landslide." But whether it's 46% or 49%, that's still a lot of people who are leaning right, and still close enough to 50% that we shouldn't treat it like 10%.

We want a healthcare system that works. Whether a universal healthcare system would fulfill that is very debatable and debated.

. . . as long as we're reasonable about pulling out of Iraq and don't put anybody at risk rushing it. As long as they have a stable government when we pull out.

. . . and since when were our military bases "imperial?" In no way do they try to influence tle policies of the nations they are in. For the most part, they exist as places where we can have troops in case NATO, the UN, or some other international organization wants them, or if we have to go to war somewhere outside the continental US. In addition, many of the bases are left over from fighting countries that used to have vastly more imperialistic tendencies than we do. What do you think Japan was doing in WWII? Germany? Yeah, they were trying to create empires of their own.

Maybe we should close some of those bases to bring more troops back to the US, but their mere existence isn't making us "imperialistic."